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Post by limjamrace on Jun 2, 2009 9:44:13 GMT
Due to myself devolping a supercharged engine or two i'd like to propose an unlimited technical stance in the H&T society championship rules.. So long as it is in the metal 999cc anything goes!!
I have put my views to Gerry and as it stands this series can only exist providing a handicap system is involved anyway,so why not make the registration net as large as possible!
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Post by gerryrichards on Jun 3, 2009 22:43:07 GMT
This is an important discussion, but overall I'm against forced induction as you have to consider its effect as two-fold. You're right Dave that inclusiveness if the key to getting good grids, and allowing turbos/SCs might add a few more cars which become eligible. The problem is that it will probably also put off just as many drivers, maybe more than it attracts, resulting in smaller grids not bigger ones.
For a car to come to a grid it not only has to be eligible, but owned by someone who wants to race it. Even with handicaps I think blown cars might put people off. Rightly or wrongly people might think 'If someone has a blown car that's built well and they can drive, they'll win, simple as that, so if anyone else wants to win then they'll have to build one too.'
It would however be nice to see people with blown cars getting inolved with the HTS but I'm not in favour of them racing against NA cars - I like the idea of the engineering challenge of extracting power from small NA engines, 1000cc is 'the magic number' as Pete Richards once said, and it's no surprise that the MSA employ their 1.4 multiplication factor for forced induction, which moves us away from the original concept.
Comments please....!
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 4, 2009 9:51:41 GMT
Yeah..How come you have five big stars and i only have one little one?
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Post by gerryrichards on Jun 4, 2009 11:28:43 GMT
Our IT officer Mr Bower, who intends to build a Reliant based contender, has kindly given me admin rights - oh, the feeling of power! I'll resist the obvious comment about your 'little one' David!
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Post by simonb87 on Jun 4, 2009 21:50:12 GMT
Hello Gerry and the 100/1000 brigade,
I have to agree that turbos or superchargers would effectively make a 998cc engine 1400 and that is not what this society is about. Lets try and get enough people together with suitable cars to make up a grid - this needs in excess of 20 which is a tall order, but there should be enough cars out there if we can get them together.
Cheers - Simon
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 4, 2009 23:00:00 GMT
They don't actually...It is still physically 998cc ..It is only a Ruling that makes it up to 1400cc. Forced induction is a performance aid ...just as modifying your normal aspirated engine is! Admitally selfishly applied by me,as that is the way i am heading for the future,and perhaps (selfishly) the same by you as you have a balls out historic car and don't want to get beaten by a forced induction MODIFIED racecar. From another angle i am looking towards a 982cc Fiat engine giving 130bhp to be on terms with - up to 1400cc in HSA! They will be glad i'm sure of the extra variety of machinery and another potential entry ,as we should be in 100/1000.. For a wider net of as you say 20 cars plus on the grid we have to scan all ideas/makes not just Hillman Imp! A Fiat engine ,say has to go a long way to compete on output to a Imp engine and so the forced induction aspect is allowing another aspect of grid size..cheaper as it happens! It has been said that a newcomer with say a 50 bhp Imp will be put off by having to compete against a 120-150bhp S/C Imp.. Perhaps one could say what chance have i winning anything if i have to compete against the HSCC champion! The answer is we all have to start somewhere. I started in 1980 with a 100bhp+ Sunbeam Mason Stiletto..i didn't win anything because i was a novice..It takes more than the best kit to win races!! 20 years later i was still effectively a novice with a 50bhpish Imp like you had with the HSA! I wont say that i beat you on what were equal terms....Yes i will!!! Why not! 10 years after that you could beat me hands down with the same type of HSCC car because of that you have come a long way since i stopped(?)! By 2011 i should be up to speed despite being nealy 60 years old (or young thinking positively! Repeating myself again this is about all makes ..Fiat ..Mini..Reliant..Ford.and anything else..physically 1000cc I'm pointing out that from personal experience of trying to get a grid of Imp cars just will not be a go-er!! After spending thousands on my forced induction developments for road and track i cannot see spending anymore myself climbing down to N/A just to compete in 100/1000's That means encouraging anyone with a pre 1980 car + PHYSICAL 1000cc engine...Something like 100 registered potential competitors which will wittle down to a grid of your estimated 20!
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 4, 2009 23:08:37 GMT
Our IT officer Mr Bower, who intends to build a Reliant based contender, has kindly given me admin rights - oh, the feeling of power! I'll resist the obvious comment about your 'little one' David! Rules are that we keep things car related Gerry...not ego's(??) Don't want to see what happened in my parrallel (limjamrace).. universe on another car club(??) forum happening here! If you don't get that how about it is my birthday on June 12th.. you know all that crap about star signs well mine is Gemini .. Well my twin caused all the naughty things on the **** club site! Not the nice sensible limjamrace here!
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Post by gerryrichards on Jun 5, 2009 10:07:34 GMT
Just a little joke Dave, nice to have the good limjamrace on here, keep the naughty twin away and happy birthday to both of you for next week!
Good points about performance being a combination of many factors, not just ultimate bhp, plus the inherent advantages of the Imp engine over other designs and trying to attract other makes. Hopefully the publicity which I am currently planning will attract more drivers with non-Imp engined cars and we already have a couple of keen Fiat drivers after very little PR effort at all.
In the meantime the idea remains as it was originally formulated and appears on the home page of the website i.e. for cars on carbs or efi, and I only say that as a means of clarification not through any sense of 'that was the original idea so I'm sticking with it' or anything egotistical like that! I think that too much suggestion of goal-post moving might put people off as they need to know where they stand.
No doubt there will be more debate and views on this, but for now let's try and grow the society with NA cars, but see what other interest we get from people who might want to run blown engines.
Cheers
Gerry
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Post by swifty on Jun 9, 2009 21:54:23 GMT
I've got an old Jumo 004B Turbojet off an ME262. Would that be legal? I was after a Rolls Royce Derwent, but I couldn't find one on ebay.
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 11, 2009 13:49:33 GMT
Guess that would comply if it is 1000cc!
...Somehow i think i'm not going to be the only fruit cake on this site!
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Post by pheyden on Jun 11, 2009 20:57:07 GMT
I thought I would add my 2 cents worth as well. Although my knowledge of IMPS is limited, I do know a bit about 1 litre Minis, 1 litre Ford Anglias, 1 litre NSU TTSs, and a lot about 1 litre Abarths.
I like the idea of NA with a 1000cc limit, but in the name of inclusivity, I would suggest that a better displacement limit, given what is raced today, may be 1050cc. This would make eligible the Autobianchi A112 (front wheel drive), the Fiat 127, 1st & 2nd series, and it is also the engine of choice for almost all Fiat 1000TC replicas that have been built in recent times.
Yes, Abarth did have a 982cc motor, and bored 0.020 over it would give 996cc. However this block has proven to be difficult to find, as not many were produced and all of the FIA racers have pretty much gobbled up whatever supply there was. A good 982cc block is worth over 1000 Euro at the moment.
I would suggest that the rules as used for the Abarth Coppa Mille may have some items that you could use. One of the concerns is carburetion. I think there are probably good period original or aftermarket heads available for any of the makes, that will allow running dual DCOE webers. However, I would suggest that it is all about competition, and not just about horsepower. The Coppa Mille can get 30+ cars out for a race any time they want. They have three divisions for the 4 cylinder engines.
Div 2 Rear Wheel Drive 1050cc - 1 dual choke carburetor Div 3 Front Wheel Drive 1050cc - 1 dual choke carburetor Div 4 Front/Rear Wheel drive 1050cc - 2 dual choke carburetors
No electronic or mechanical fuel injection allowed. No distributorless ignition allowed.
Of course there are always going to be faster cars ( 996cc Davrian for example), but the idea is to get competition between cars, not purely horsepower.
I would be against any type of forced induction, only because it hurts the idea of close competition.
My 2 cents.
Paul Vanderheijden
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Post by racingclan1 on Jun 11, 2009 22:15:44 GMT
David,
Good to see you're still trying argue the point to your adavantage. So you'll be fitting a 710cc supercharged Fiat engine to keep within the regulations. One of the Steyr -Puch 700 's should fit the bill.
Paul,
As someone who competes, and has done regularly over the past few years, with the Abarth Coppa Milla I can see where you are coming from. However, I think the excess of classes within that series along with those of the competing British Car Trophy and NSU trophy make it difficult for the spectator to determine who is winning what without constant reference to the programme. I'd disagree with your statement in respect of most of Abarth 1000TC replicas being 1050cc. Not those competing in the Coppa Milla according to the entry lists I have. In fact the 1050's appear to be in the minority with most ranging in capacity from 982 to 1000. Also, a number of the A112 are listed as 1000cc or less. Or am I naive in believing what people put into print.
I must add, however, the attraction to me of the ABN Group races is the variety of cars to race against and I hope this form of racing can be replicated with Gerry'ss proposals in this country.
Pete Richards
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Post by pheyden on Jun 15, 2009 1:33:30 GMT
Hello Pete, I "know" that when I competed in the Coppa Mille in 2001 and again in 2004 that my engine was 996cc, as it was a 1000 OT block with a 65.5mm bore and a 74mm stroke. I was however the odd-man, there were only two other cars (both 1000 OTs), driven by Fred Winkel and Jurgen Schurgers respectively, that would have had similar displacement. Other competitors in Divisions 2,3 and 4 would have had engines ranging from 1050cc to 1091cc in displacement. I know this, as I have provided pistons and other major engine components for at least 50% of the competitors in the Coppa Mille. I even know of one engine that is 1160cc in displacement. Div. 2 competitors, using the 1000TC rear engined configuration, (using a single 2 barrel downdraught carburetor) would expect to extract between 95 and 105 HP with redlines somewhere around 8500 RPM. Division 3 competitors, using the A112 configuration, would expect to produce the same HP figures. Division 4 competitors, using either 1000TC or A112 configurations, but with 4 port heads (Abarth TCR, PBS 8P or LaRussa) with individual chokes per cylinder, make around 110-112 HP @ 8500 RPM. Of course these are all long stroke motors. I have also built some shorter stroke motors at 1000cc (68.5mm bore x 68mm stroke) that produce 116HP @ 9000 RPM. However these are not for the faint-hearted and do not last very long. The principal reason for this is that the 1050cc blocks (A112A2000 70HP) are quite plentiful in supply (although it is getting harder to find them). On the other hand the A112A1000 block, with a displacement of 982cc, was only used for one year, and most have been bought up by competitors competing in FIA santioned races where the FIA has allowed it in place of the even rarer Abarth AH block (unobtanium @ $5000 USD used). The only other viable blocks are the Cinquecento 900/Seicento 900/Fiat 850-903/Fiat 127 903. All of these can be configured to displacements from 903 to 970cc with a little thought and cunning. As far As NSU goes, I had some hand in preparing the 1969 SCCA National Championship winning engine of Bill Allen's NSU-TTS. This would be 996cc and about the maximum compression that you can run is 11:1 (air/oil cooled). We "guesstimated" the HP of that engine @ 100 HP @8500 RPM. Of course there are much larger NSU engines as you well know. The NSU TT -Trophy regularly sees competitors running up to 1300cc with HP numbers to suit. Then of course there are all of the British Leyland cars such as Minis, MG1100, etc. The Mini was made in several versions below 1000cc, but also in several versions with more than 1000cc. But you know these cars much better than I. The same goes for the IMPs. I know that they were developed to 998cc, and that a well prepped car is very fast. But, enough of technical stuff. I believe that if you want to get a good turnout, then you must build in some "give and take" in the rules. Some cars will have 5 speed gearboxes, others not. When it comes to spectators, they just want a good show. Yes, in the combined Coppa Mille, NSU TT Trophy, British Car Trophy races there is quite a mix of cars, but the one thing you can say is that everyone has someone to race with, and that is what the spectators want to see. The cost of hiring circuits is such that it simply cannot be done by one club alone. These three clubs in combining their efforts are able to race a first-line circuits. I wish you all the best in your efforts. It is my plan to perhaps return to Europe for yet another year of competition. I am sure that you can imagine the logistics involved in traveling from the USA to Europe 10-12 times in one year and arranging for service/repair of the car in between events. I have been rebuilding my car and "stretching" the rules as far as I possible can, in terms of the Coppa Mille. For anyone interested you can go to this web address and take a look. scuderiatopolino.com/scuderiabb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13I look forward to being able to contribute whenever the opportunity presents itself. Regards Paul
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 15, 2009 8:48:51 GMT
A way out of not being so strict on the absolute 1000cc limit would be to restrict the Abarth A112 2000 engine to no rebore service size.. Example Abarth engine cc 1050. Hillman Imp max rebore +60 = 1040cc Mini,Ford and who else =?
As you can see from Pauls postings the Fiat/Abarth and variants are an extremely interesting historic race car scene! In the UK not so common ,but jolly interesting for spectators to see i think. The two Fiat registrations we have should be welcomed as celebraties in way of variety for the 100/1000 society! I would recommend studying the in's and outs of Pauls website as it gives loads of free information in theory & fundimentals of race preparation! Not only of Fiats! I found the 850 Sport Coupe i purchased a breath of fresh air after being involved in Imps for some 40 years..It was a vehicle i wanted as a 17 year old and although now i have yet to do more than 1 mile in it after a 4 year ownership ..I am looking forward to doing something different! Although i have to admit it doesn't match the technical spec of an Imp! Then again the Imp engine doesn't come near a NSU engine with it's 5 bearing crank and so on...beautiful! The 100/1000 society race series would be so much more exciting for circuit organisers,spectators,competitors,and so on if we can encourage variety of such interesting vehicles! Chuck in a couple of forced induction cars as well ;)then all the better! David L.
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Post by clanisalotus on Jul 9, 2009 8:55:09 GMT
I have two engines currently for my Clan, a fairly std 875 sport which will push the Clan to 100mph on a std box and a 1040 modified one which will do a lot more even on a shorter geared c/r box.
The way things stands I'd have to use the 875 to comply...but that would need more development for racing if it were to be reliable and last a full series. That would suck the budget a tad for sure, and I don't want to blow up a perfectly good road engine just for the fun of it (or do I :lol)
Obviously I'd prefer to use the better developed 1040 which was built well before this society began. As the moment, money wise, a 998 version isn't going to happen because I need to finance the development of the rest of the car too.
Personally, I'd be happy to run with the 1040 but be disallowed for championship points so I can continue to develop the car in a real racing situation. And in any case, as a complete novice to racing the chances of me having an advantage with 1040 in an undeveloped car would be very unlikely. :lol
Then, if things go well with both the 100/1000 society and my Clan development the change to 998 would happen eventually....and along the way the grid numbers might benefit too.
Or perhaps by allowing 1040 Imps and 1050 fiats from the off you would guarantee a fuller grid by including people who like me are attracted to the whole idea, but feel a bit caught out by just 40 cc (which won't make a lot of difference will it?)
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