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Post by limjamrace on Jun 12, 2009 21:52:45 GMT
Well it seems my forced induction Imp is out of contention.... so as Gerry's initial idea was to encourage the newcomer as well as top flight interest in a 1000cc limit then how about Paul's (ScuderiaTopolino's) information of the CoppaMille regs..The 2 choke carb class seems idea to me ..It would level out all the makes in power output.
Anyone thinking of doing this society race series needs at least 18 months to get it all together from scratch ,so can we have a definete thing rule book to aim for..
For me i can finish off HGH (Imp) .Get my late Father's Mk 1 Cortina on the road,have the 850 Coupe race ready as a rolling shell by say August (as per Pete R's standard of speed prep)...Then spend/save/spend lots of money on a 9000rpm screamer with a twin choke carb..It'll be 2011 by then and ready when you are!
Pity about the non compliance of Forced induction as i feel it is so much cheaper to prepare!
If you turn to ScuderiaTopolino's website and see Paul's project car you can see what such a serious thing it is to do! This is the 1 choke per cylinder class and for my suggestion of a 2 choke limit per engine would make more sense for Gerry's 100/100 set-up!
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Post by racingclan1 on Jun 13, 2009 13:53:12 GMT
Funny how I compete with the Abarth Coppa Milla and from the programmes and entry lists the majority of the 1000cc cars have capacities of less than 1000cc.
In my opinion we should stick to the original idea of 1000cc. I can see the Fiat side of the argument as it's been put but the evidence used is in my opinion flawed. How many Fiats are expected to register? Very few based on my knowledge of those competing in this country. As regards attracting cars from the Coppa Milla you can forget it as they would not be willing to pay the considerable additional cost of competing in this country.
I think more will be gained by sticking to 1000cc and trying to attract the 1 litre Minis and Anglias.
Pete Richards
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Post by racingclan1 on Jun 13, 2009 14:00:38 GMT
One additional point I'd like to make is that of the Coppa Milla is being put up as a successful race series. In actual fact it is part, I admit the main part, of a race series consisting of 3 different series. This is how it manages to get the entriy numbers necessary to enable entry fees to be kept to a minimum and keep the spectators interested. Until the last couple of years it could almost be considered as an unofficial series with very little interference by the German governing body. Howvere this has all now changed and it along with its partners, The British Car Trophy and NSU Challenge, have been taken under the juistriction of the DMSB with a resultant change in the regulations. This change can also be seen to have had a noticeable effect on the entries this year.
Pete Richards
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 13, 2009 19:07:38 GMT
Is that why the Nurburgring round was cancelled ?
Paul of ScuderiaTopolino was most upset as it was to be his 10 th anniversary year of attendance!
I had an idea ,well Rory Coles's actually to spend a holiday out there this June as a birthday treat for myself..Ho hum!
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 13, 2009 19:30:56 GMT
I'm not saying we should attract Coppa Mille competitors over here..just adopt their technical regs as they seem ideal!
From the membership list it appears to be a widespread register
We should as i keep saying make the net of entries as wide as possible..If there are only 2 Fiats aroiund then that is better than two without.
I have openly admited that my Imp is going forced induction eventually for the hills & sprints.and i am selfishly attempting to have a forced induction avenue for 100/1000
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 13, 2009 20:19:49 GMT
...This is because i would love to compete in this series,but i don't see myself building another Imp N/A engine for say £5000 when i'll have hopefully 150 horses for much less.
As i intend to market a road going version as well as the competition one it makes sense for me to go this route!
The way things stand at the moment i could do Class N HSA with what i have now..It is still installed with Webers and a head cam set up for such a event..
My driving apart ...to compete on equal terms with such people as the Cairneys i need a GE3 camshaft with all the cam carrier and top of head mods to go with it!
I might as well spend the £500 +needed to fund (?) towards the Supercharged route..
At present i have mocked up the installation ,well almost with Eaton 45 bolted on and intercooler awaiting plumbing..Then it is down to EDIS and electronic fuel injuction.. The head will be opened out to lower compression ratio + ideas forwarded by Topolino such as top down cooling to ease detonation.
HGH the Imp in question is legal for circuit requirements with only a change in out of date fire extinquisher and at present seat belt that you could lift my boat out of the water with, but alas the date is out of sell by!
This leaves me with the Fiat for Hundreds and Thousands... Now to upgrade the 903cc engine to 982cc and around 100bhp will cost something like £6000 and i'll still not have enough to out perform - say an Imp engine!
I still have to fund the MSA regs for circuit use!
I know it is about lot of other things in the equasion, but thinking selfishly again i could modify the engine with a lot less and say approach 70 bhp with a twin choke as induction for its 4 cylinders!
Same as a Mini ..Same as an Imp ..Same as a Anglia..same as a Reliant 4 wheel jobby..same as a VW polo !
You get my drift!
We all know of thousands of Imp owners alone who have the rollcage Imp sport exhaust,engine lid and twin Strombergs.. The same must apply for the Ford.,Mini.,and so on..
The cost and availability of a twin Webered set up with combined inlet & exhaust is a wallet sapping outlay... I cannot imagine what a Ford 1 litre steel screamer must cost to build.
I'm making a big about turn here as i feel there are avenues for the high output vehicles already in say HSCC and maybe more!
Perhaps a unlimited vehicle mods but restricted to 1000cc and a 2 choke induction system is the way to do it!!
I'd really like to see a free formula which could include Special Saloons and beyond,but thats a nogo from the outset from Gerrys outlook...All spreading a wide net boyo!!
Anyhow just my own preference again!
David L.
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Post by gerryrichards on Jun 13, 2009 21:16:11 GMT
Dave correctly makes the point that we will need to clarify the regs once and for all at some point in the future - I agree. However I think we should hold off publishing anything which looks too formal or final until we have made some more progress as a society, after all this is still at the ideas stage and we don't want to publish something which seems to imply too strongly that this will definitely go ahead, and people start building cars only for it not to happen.
However in the meantime the idea stands as per the website i.e. 1000cc on carbs or efi with minimal regulation in other areas, which seems to suit the vast majority of those interested, espcially those people who already have cars which are raced (or planned to be raced) in other series - they will no doubt form the back-bone of this should it happen. Plus a 1-litre N/A engine is a reasonable propostion for anyone wishing to compete with Imp, A-series or Ford power, plus some Fiats (including 2 we aready have registered), although like anything in motor sport it can end up costing a fortune - depends on how ultra-competitive you want to be about it, how much you can do yourself, how you drive and how many reliability issues you face.
The only concession I did think about was up to 1050cc for pushrod OHV engines, letting in the larger Fiat engines, but unless there is a significant number of drivers with such engines showing direct interest, there's no real need to implement this either.
Cheers
Gerry
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 14, 2009 9:16:12 GMT
Fair do's...so can we have the other 30 or so society members expressing their views!
If this is going to happen in 2011 we want it to suit a successful outcome.
I was thinking at some stage in the near future a track day on the basis of bring what yer brung or whatever they call it !
That Imp Club national weekend track day was i believe very successful.
I'm sure the Mini Cooper or 105e clubs have had the same!
1000cc limit mind!
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Post by racingclan1 on Jun 14, 2009 18:38:14 GMT
The problem with the start of any new series is making it attractive for all of the targeted cars. Gerry's proposals are, I believe, not to detailed as to put anyone off. From the people who have been attracted so far the great majority would appear to be Imp based athough I feel a considerable number of these are unlikely to transfer to entries once the costs become apparent.
As has been said the other obvious cars are the Mini and the Anglia. Taking the Mini first the problem is that currently there are are at least 4 existing series for Mini's in various states of preparation and tune and it will I feel be very difficult to offer up this series as an alternative. That leaves the Anglia's which does not appear to be a popular race vehicle in these times despite being popular in the past. Any currently racing are likely to be competing in the Historic Series. As suggested contact with the Owners Club could be useful.
As Gerry realises we will need a very good number of committed people to be able to sell the idea to an existing racing organiser. It is this part that worries me as I believe that based on current price the going rate for a 15 minute race and practice is of the order of £6000. This price will vary with the circuit because of the differing hire costs. A simple calculation shows that a grid of less than 20 is not practical and even with a grid of 30 the entry fee would have to be at least £200.
How many of those who have signed up are willing to commit to that sort of outlay on top of preparation costs, transport etc.
Pete Richards
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Post by limjamrace on Jun 14, 2009 19:21:56 GMT
This is all so true Pete!
In 2008 i pulled the plug on my Son's Karting competition as each event was getting to being £600 - 1000!
I don't think anyone can dispute that Karting gives the most for your £££ ,but it is still a lot of money!
My involvement with SEMSEC revealed the most competitive price entry going..you even got a discount if you entered more than one race!
This is all connected to the MSA of course whose standards of safety and so on are tops..perhaps over the tops!
I remember Gerry and Vince Frost,Andy Jones all going up to Anglesey for an event which you paid on the day if i remember..Didn't even need a Competition licence as such!!
I may have all this wrong ,but perhaps we should explore this avenue rather than the MSA.. No doubt people like you will be blacklisted for competing with another non MSA ruling...Or so i am led to believe!
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mark
New member
Professional Geek
Posts: 9
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Post by mark on Jun 15, 2009 14:12:32 GMT
1000cc equivalent IMO. So anyone wanting to race a 714cc turbo car would also be welcome (if a 1.4 equivalency is used - I don't know what the norm is for racing). As many chokes as you like. A 998cc turbo Imp engine cannot run in HSA class N (or shouldn't) as the FI equivalanecy in sprints and hills is 1.4, and class N is up to 1040cc. I may have all this wrong ,but perhaps we should explore this avenue rather than the MSA.. No doubt people like you will be blacklisted for competing with another non MSA ruling...Or so i am led to believe! The rule about licence holders not having involvement in non MSA events is "selectively" enforced. It has been suggested to me you wont find yourself up in front of an MSA tribunal for racing bangers on a 1/4 mile oval but an MSA registered motorclub organising a banger race meeting might be, as would a Regional Association promoting a championship outside the MSA rules. Some non-MSA series are looking at getting their championship rules etc into an MSA compatible format so they can come under the MSA speed events umbrella (Time Attack is one specific example that I have on good authority). It's still not a risk I would be willing to take. The level of safety equipment required for the different disciplines is IMO about right, even though I don't agree with banning Type A helmets in speed events from the end of this year (Proban will be going sometime in the future as well AIUI). Regarding costs, the hire of Castle Combe for the day on a Saturday is about 5500+VAT this year I believe (don't have the budget for either of our sprints there with me to check). That's without paying for any of your services (scruts, timekeepers, medics etc etc etc) That's non-revenue, if you want to charge the public to get in it's rather more AIUI. No idea about other race circuits except that they are all more expensive. |
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Post by racingclan1 on Jun 16, 2009 22:39:29 GMT
What happened to all those interested people? If theye are interested enough to sign up surely they must be interested in deciding the series regulations and format. Or is it the usual of letting someone else do the work and complain about it later. The same as no-voters complaining about the government.
Pete Richards
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Post by gerryrichards on Jun 17, 2009 9:28:37 GMT
More a case of people not yet having cottoned onto the forum or this thread yet I think Pete. This is more of an informal debate about regs (nothing wrong with that in itself), rather than a formal invitation for people to register their ideas or vote on regs etc..
If it gets to the point of needing any kind of official census of opinion I'm sure that can be organised but it's something I'd rather avoid, certainly at this early stage.
In the meantime I'll take the lack of further comment to mean that a more relaxed overall approach to regs but with the 1000cc NA engine limit suits the needs of most interested parties.
Cheers
Gerry
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Post by racingclan1 on Jun 17, 2009 11:33:37 GMT
I think you're right Gerry but I honestly thought there would be more input from those who have expressed an interest.
As you say a relaxed approach to regulations appears to work but the 1000cc NA engine has to be stuck to. Once you start making exceptions you open a very big can of worms.
Pete Richards
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Post by gerryrichards on Jun 17, 2009 13:41:59 GMT
Yes, only 14 members on the forum so far so it'd be nice to see more people sign up -still, you've gotta start somewhere! I sent a press release off to some magazines last week and I await their response - I'll persist if they don't get back soon. I reckon there must be loads more potential owners out there who aren't aware of our plans as yet.
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