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Post by gerryrichards on Sept 15, 2009 20:42:24 GMT
Re: the e-mail sent to all members today - should we have a class where engines over 1000cc are allowed? Comments please, but no full on arguments!!
Cheers
Gerry
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Post by racingclan1 on Sept 15, 2009 22:07:56 GMT
Simple answer - No. I signed up because of the stated intention of a race series for 1 litre cars.
Pete Richards
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Post by swifty on Sept 16, 2009 17:10:52 GMT
Hi All I agree, 1000cc is a nice round number, we have to stop somewhere. Cheers
Tim
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Post by limjamrace on Sept 16, 2009 19:46:02 GMT
To stop somewhere, first you have to start..
Is this going to be a Clan,Davrian,Ginetta ..,i'm all right Jack situation then...ie low frontal area,low centre of gravity,power to weight advantage straight out of the box!
As i've said before you need at least 30 cars for the grid as starters...Unless other marques just want to race for fun and not be cup hoggers then i think all this will be a non starter! Maybe also we should look into reasons why the up to 1000cc class became non existant!
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Post by swifty on Sept 16, 2009 22:08:17 GMT
I can understand what you're saying David, trying my hardest to ignore the inflammatory " I'm alright Jack remark" , but wouldn't we be in danger of ending up like any other race series, with a broad band of engine sizes, consequently moving away from the spirit of what the series is about. Surely, allowing engine sizes up to 1150cc is going to widen the gap between the 850cc/875cc boys and the bigger engined chaps even further? Some may want to use the smaller capacity engines and this would make them 26% down on capacity instead of the 15% it already is. The only way that I could see it working, is that the heavier motors be allowed the larger capacity and the Davs, Ginettas and Clans etc. being restricted to 1000cc maximum, but this may be what you're hinting at? Cheers Tim
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Post by limjamrace on Sept 17, 2009 9:57:34 GMT
Yes Tim i have mentioned before a 875 limit for that category of vehicle. This would include any Mini Marcos or Gem that maybe around. Perhaps a usual +60th overbore allowance to boot! Not too up in the little sportcar Hondas,but i think their capacity is 700cc,and so would encourage that marque to participate . I'm not really in favour of a 1150cc extention as in most cases it would involve a degree of re-designnment...I think the 1000cc limit would be it,but it does stuff the Fiat guys up somewhat! Yep ...Definetly think this is getting close to an agreement here!
Also some newcomer( saloon/steel car) with a basic engine can eventually develop their cars to be competitive without being too far away in the outset1
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Post by racingclan1 on Sept 17, 2009 10:30:56 GMT
David,
I have to disaggree with stuffing up the Fiats. Not if my experience of racing with 1000cc ones in Europe is anthing to go by. The answer is to have a classless series and decide the results on consistency. It can be done as I found this weekend when I raced in the RAFMSA Speed Challenge at Cadwell Park. The cars were a varied mixture of saloons, sportscars including a Mallock and a Radical with all of them being on List 1B tyres. I will be getting details of the formula used but it was certainly a well run series.
Pete Richards
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Post by swifty on Sept 17, 2009 10:47:37 GMT
Hi David Yep, I can see where you're coming from with that, the only problem is and I know that you've already invested in a turbo'd engine (but let's not go there, oh! go on then, if you want to ), is that several members with Imps, Clans Ginettas etc. have already started to build their 998 units (me included). I don't have any experience on the racing side, so I don't know how uncompetitive let's say a lightened Imp, Mini, Anglia or Fiat would be against the plastic motors. Cheers Tim
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Post by meltdown on Sept 17, 2009 18:03:27 GMT
"Maybe also we should look into reasons why the up to 1000cc class became non existant!"
The simple reason for demise of the 1000cc class in motorsport was that it became the vogue for manufacturers to build their smallest capacity engines at or around 1300cc. The Chrysler Sunbeam is a case in point that a sub-1000cc engine wasn't powerful or economical enough for the incoming hatchbacks. I'm all for keeping the limit to 1000cc.
To amalgamate the two current discussions I would be inclined to keep tyre choice free, including slicks, but make an allowance in the proposed handicap system. See how results shake out and either modify the handicaps or introduce success ballast - which appears to work well in BTCC.
BTW, The only Honda I can think of that would be eligible is the S800. I think it started life as a 600cc but was quickly enlarged to 800cc. It's a bike engine too, and was originally chain-driven. It's jolly quick but very rare. Saab Sonnet anyone?
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Post by limjamrace on Sept 19, 2009 10:25:10 GMT
David, I have to disaggree with stuffing up the Fiats. Not if my experience of racing with 1000cc ones in Europe is anthing to go by. The answer is to have a classless series and decide the results on consistency. It can be done as I found this weekend when I raced in the RAFMSA Speed Challenge at Cadwell Park. The cars were a varied mixture of saloons, sportscars including a Mallock and a Radical with all of them being on List 1B tyres. I will be getting details of the formula used but it was certainly a well run series. I thought it had been established that the Fiat stuff over in Coppa Mille was mostly A112 based,even one competitor with a near on 1200cc engine! I like the idea of the consistancy..Rather like the Karting scene ,perhaps where you score points on heats to finalise the grid position! Although in our case points scored over the season on lap times and finishing rather than just positions(??) I remember Gerry stating though that a lot of people want to win outright ..If not on the day ,but in the future,and that wont happen if you have vehicles born with design advantages against those not so..ie saloons or sports! To be honest i'm begining to warm to the 1000cc(always have actually) limit as intended providing it enables all comers to compete on a competitive status! The way things seem to me all this will enable a few people with Davrains,Clan ,G15 to have a go ..More like in someone else's event and not sucking people into our series!!!
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Post by limjamrace on Sept 19, 2009 10:57:15 GMT
Hi David Yep, I can see where you're coming from with that, the only problem is and I know that you've already invested in a turbo'd engine (but let's not go there, oh! go on then, if you want to ), is that several members with Imps, Clans Ginettas etc. have already started to build their 998 units (me included). I don't have any experience on the racing side, so I don't know how uncompetitive let's say a lightened Imp, Mini, Anglia or Fiat would be against the plastic motors. Cheers Perhaps you should have waited then until the regs were laid out finally then!!! Which is where my point is really..Just how many people like me,and you and others already have something on the table,and may/will have to revamp to suit a series! As i may have stated already...To me Motor Racing is about ...the quickest most talented driver...the most cleverest innoventive builder...and someone with a bigger bag of gold! Thats Life!! Yes have things at a 1000cc limit,but untie peoples hands..If not then limit the engine size(ie 890cc) to the theoretical status of performance to that category of vehicle! Or let it all go "free Formula",includng forced induction...As i have said it is a lot easier nowadays to get a tuned engine using T/C S/C rather than the expensive N/A route! Ask Eric!! Sorry to say though that from where i am sitting this whole idea is for a bunch of guys & gals to use their GRP bodied "IMP" engined sportscars!! With 998cc engines! Hope that this isn't taken as too much inflammertery,but i would rather air my views & feelings now rather than gripe after the flag drops!
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Post by meltdown on Sept 19, 2009 21:09:48 GMT
"To me Motor Racing is about ...the quickest most talented driver...the most cleverest innoventive builder...and someone with a bigger bag of gold! Thats Life!!"
True words indeed. Up to a point. The emphasis MUST be given to the proposed handicap system (or a variation thereof). This should in theory allow the quickest most talented driver in any given car to stand a good chance of winning a championship, even if that car is totally standard bar safety stuff. Regarding innovation, I'm all for someone coming up with something clever to gain a mote of performance within the regs - motorsport has always thrived on this.
As for having the biggest cheque book, well just look at Brawn GP. They admittedly inherited a good car but their racing budget has been a whole lot smaller than most other teams on the F1 grid. I've heard there's a £40k Clan out there somewhere (don't know who) but if the driver isn't something special (please, no offence if you're reading this it's just an example) then it ain't going to be pedalled competitively enough.
The way I see things is:- People think this HTS lark is Imp-biased. It may well have originated from an Imp background, but I think any bias is simply down to publicity at this point in time. I know Gerry is working on this. There are Fiats racing across Europe having a lot of fun, who may well be tempted to join the party - especially if the 'innovation' idea is applied to make their cars quicker than their existing regs allow. This also goes for Minis who have more existing racing opportunities than you can shake a stick at. A Miglia 1000cc car is already developed as far as it can go, and would quite possibly wipe the smile off the face of today's HSCC Imp competitors. So I would think there's little reason for them not to come and play.
On the subject of HSCC Imp racers, they already have probably the best 998cc lumps money can buy and well-prepared cars to boot, but are stymied by the regs for HSCC and are I should think crying out for scope to improve their cars whilst still being able to convert back to HSCC spec for that championship.
And now for what seems to be the biggie... One of the points of this proposed championship (correct me if I'm wrong) is to allow the 'GRP engined sportscars' - Imp based or otherwise, and there's already a Maguire Mini registered - to race; because they currently have nowhere else to go!
To summarise my ramblings, methinks the regs must encompass as many different marques and states of modification as possible. The only way to do this is to support a handicap system, backed up perhaps by success ballast. That way a quick driver and a clever mind can hope to win no matter how big the bank account. Best of luck!
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Post by limjamrace on Sept 20, 2009 9:30:46 GMT
Many thanks for the reply ..Meltdown! It is good to have this return of discussion of feelings before the start of any laid down regulations! If there are any developments by Gerry or anyone else in command here ,can we have them openly put about on this forum or the website..
What i don't understand is the few members only on here are making the running . To my count there are 43 people registered ..So why arn't they putting their comments,advice or even social wording to this forum! I have noted that the visits to the forum in any such 24 hour period are the same bunch(all Imp related)apart from the odd visitor
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Post by swifty on Sept 20, 2009 10:51:16 GMT
Hi All I think the one thing we can agree on, is that we want as many types of cars to participate as possible. The main reason that I want to race a Clan, isn't down to the fact that, at the start I was thinking of the best way to stuff a steel bodied car, it was more down to the fact that I already have a very nice and quick Imp, all steel, for road use and I fancied something else to compete in. I have worked with Imp engines for 23 years and it's what I know. Believe me, my main aim in the first season is to finish as many races as I can, not to win them. The 1000cc is the crucial point form me, N/A just seems, for some reason to be right, the added power boost turbos give the car on the straights would be incredible, but it just wouldn't be period (pre 1980) and would, in my opinion, outweigh any performance gains by having a GRP car. I think that the sooner we can agree that 1000cc is the definitive maximum, in order to give everybody a chance, we have to look at the handicapping system and this will give the widest amount of variables to be taken into account without lowering cubic capacity for different car types. The only other way, would be for all of us to drive the same marque of car, most of us would agree that this is not what the series is about. I agree with you David, that it would be good if we could get some more input from the other, non Imp based, members with their ideas of how to go forward. Perhaps it's because , in relative terms, these are still very early days and that more vocal eligible participants may join in time. Cheers Tim
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mark
New member
Professional Geek
Posts: 9
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Post by mark on Sept 21, 2009 8:36:57 GMT
Yes to a 1000cc limit, seems to me that more than anything defines the series.
(my car is 1040cc so I would need a different engine)
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